Unpopular SEO Opinion – There should be a governing body for SEOs (SEO sellers) that advocate consumer rights. Tired of people calling themselves SEOs who can’t even optimize Google My Biz (GMB)s correctly.
[filtered from 103 💬🗨]
We tried it with SEMPO all those years ago.
There are way too many bear traps to get an agreement, e.g. is black hat bad?
Some will say yes, others will say no.
If the client is made aware of the risks then isn't that acceptable? Then again when you have noobs buying 200,000 social signals and 40,000 backlinks to the money site, purely because they don't have a scooby how can it work?
Defining black and white in the extreme is easy, the problem is when you get to the grey areas 🙂 👍🏽2
– The problem really is that clients have no clue what they’re agreeing to 8/10 times.
If I tell a client I will get them one niche back link per month that has high relevancy and is no follow, and another company says they will get them 10 with a 85+ DA. Guess who the consumer is going with?
Clients don’t understand search engine optimization (SEO). It’s too convoluted and changes.
SEMPO was a great idea but it lacked a national registry that attempted to certify. It was buy in only if I remember correctly, not based on percentiles of leading SEOs or agencies with SEOs.
The certification would have to be void of certain questions. I got a GMB over here where they keyword stuffed the name and couldn’t even be bothered to fill our service descriptions. These are all agreeably just purely bad practices that I think every SEO would or should agree on. But then again maybe not. 👍🏽2
Edwards » Mew
yep and that right there was the problem. Sempo was meant to be an organization that pushed best practices, the main issue was always what is best practice 🙂 👍🏽2
Mew 👑✍️ » Edwards
– Whatever Google says 😂💁🏼♂️ 🤭1
Rehan » Mew
I think client also need to understand that he can’t buy everything under 5$.
I think you should correct it a bit. Instead of..tired of people calling themselves Seo …. should be tired of people calling themselves Seo experts 🤣 that's a bigger problem. 🤭👍🏽5
– Touché! 😂😂
The whole digital industry needs regulation. The amount of rogue traders out there is unreal. 👍🏽3
– SEOs are among some of the most untrusted people on this planet. Lucky us. Haha
Edwards » Mew
i'd say we are WAY behind lawyers, and politicians 👍🏽🤭2
Paul » Mew
yeah absolutely because for every one good SEO there’s ten bad ones. I’d like to see some proper certification or accreditation. 👍🏽3
Mew 👑✍️ » Paul
– Accreditation would take the backing of a University. Certification registry with percentile of a huge test would be a start but could never be the end all be all, as gray hat works frequently but can’t be certified. It’s a conundrum for sure 👍🏽2
Mew 👑✍️ » Edwards
– True but lawyers have the state BAR. Which makes people “feel” like they’re legitimate. 👍🏽1
No one knows what an SEO is. If they did, they would hate us.
One of main issues is many so called SEOs will not commit to continuous learning. If you don't understand a particular SEO task, pay to learn or ask a more experienced colleague. 👍🏽3
Steven. Probably hates me by now 😂😂 every few months I drop him some random off the wall question 🤭👍🏽3
Walford » Mew
if in doubt, check it out.
No thanks. There are too many variables and too many ways to ‘skin the cat’. Perhaps if there was an independent third party which randomly asked customers for testimonials (and couldn’t be gamed by savvy SEOs – something like clutch) then that would go some way toward making the industry self-regulating.
What do I know though, I’ve never had a client and never optimized a GMB 🤷🏼♂️ 👍🏽2
I dont think there should be a Test as that would be pretty difficult to manage with all of the opinions and methods out there, but I think there should be a standard licensing procedure, qualifications, proof of hours etc. If you're in paid ads I think you should be required to take Facebook Blue Print, Google Ads certification. 👍🏽2
– Proof of hours. I like that 🤔🤔
Or possibly even proof of successful trends on niche sites?
Jordan » Mew
maybe if you want to go out on your own. Like you are some type of apprentice/journeyman until you become full on SEO "expert".
but… that only if you are going to be an agency. i don't think you should have to if you're doing your own affiliate, lead gen, etc 👍🏽1
Mew 👑✍️ » Jordan
– Any thoughts on how to prevent this shit? These fools attack almost every group I am in! EVEN HARRY POTTER
Jordan » Mew
no idea man other than checking their profiles before letting them in, but that can be a lot of work 👍🏽1
Mew 👑✍️ » Jordan
– Wonder if there’s a script we can execute that removes anyone from group who has never posted after 90 days 🤔🤔
Jordan » Mew
well some people just like to read posts. I think that would make the spammer comment ratio increase, but Facebook needs to have more tools for managing groups imo. 👍🏽1
On the other hand, you have shit companies like Dreamscape Marketing that claim to be "ethical and transparent", meanwhile they are using a giant Private Blog Network (PBN) network to rank all their clients, charging them $5k+ for 2-3 links a month and bunch of garbage web20 links and blog posts. It's insane and that's just one, FindLaw is another good example of shit company that's just using it's own assets to rank clients then overcharging for everything else. ($500/month for video hosting? WTF) 👍🏽🤭2
I would like $5000 a month
Chandler » Joshua
$5k is their low end package, $8k is their second tier package. FindLaw charges $5-$12k and they don't do any real link-building, just add you to their directories and make crap content. So many getting scammed. 👍🏽1
Most certification by legitimate authority is administered in a framework where all knowledge is documented and all facts are corroborated via the highest quality evidence. This is not possible on Google precisely because they can’t document all knowledge or provide all facts for the same reasons Casinos can’t let you beat the house out of 4 million a la Dana White / Bellagio without getting the boot soon after. [Highly Profitable] rigged systems must remain inherently unknowable. The SEO community is left to utilize deduction and procedural logic, based on what few facts, based on what little evidence exists. For the basics of stating “you need backlinks” you can be reasonably sure that you may be in compliance with the guidelines, rules or even laws of the (hypothetically proposed) customer rights’ governing body. But there are many other areas where the facts and knowledge (documented specifically and officially by Google) are absent. It’s not the fault of the SEO that this situation exists. SEO’s instead are left to live under the “Who Dares, Wins” mantra. Or even the Ancient Greek concept of “luck favors the daring“ for those who have successfully marauded their way through a few bare knuckle organic SEO wars in such uncharted lands. Microsoft had their MCSE and other high level certs. So did IBM, HP, Compaq, Novell, Sun Microsystems, Oracle et al. All of them divulge all information officially, and this information was verified by concrete evidence as fact. So until Google officially discloses all facts then the vast difference in skills and results must always be accepted as par for the course in the “Who Dares, Wins” context. This is not astrophysics. Someone spends some cash and a website doesn’t show up high rank, money can be partially refunded, meetings can be held, management science within the known bounds of the profession can be perfected. A “Code of Ethics” however could be devised within the community by way of peer review, discourse and fair voting. Especially a Code of Ethics that doesn’t involve authority, enforcement or punitive measures. Maybe there’s one already. The American Immigration Lawyers Association has an ethical functionality. A lawyer should be ethically bound to only take your case with every intention of winning your case or succeeding in helping you obtain the desired visa. They shouldn’t just take your cash and do little if anything. If this question is one of ethics, there’s a clear path. If it’s one of official governance, facts and knowledge must be public domain or privately purchased from the principal, and administered under their authority. Maybe it could even work in items from Roman law or even Hammurabi Codes. If their site doesn’t rank yours doesn’t. “Oh my eyes and teeth hurt.” However No third party governing entity should be allowed. They must be farted upon with utmost pinto beans. As a great Humphrey Bogart flick once conveyed my sentiment for such a “third party” in the Wild West of SEO: “I don’t have to show you any stinking badges.” So long as it remains the Wild West, this is how it’s going to be played. Answer of the day. You’re welcome.
We don't need no stinking badges! 👍🏽💟3
Hmmm, I'd call myself an SEO and I must admit, I never (!) had to optimize a GMB. I am simply not dealing with local SEO. I have colleagues for that specialized in that! 👍🏽7
You’re a project manager then, not an SEO. 🤭3
Joshua » Mew
, are you drunk, dude? National SEO isn't real SEO? 👍🏽2
Mew 👑✍️ » Joshua
– If you consult with anyone to do your work, you aren’t an SEO. You’re probably a project manager or glorified keyword strategist. Period 🤭🤔2
Joshua » Mew
, he said "colleagues!" Only about local! What is happening??? 👍🏽1
Mew 👑✍️ » Joshua
– Because HE CANT DO IT. If you can’t optimize a GMB you aren’t an SEO. Especially since national companies also have GMBs 🤭1
Marcus » Mew
no, I am a technical SEO with deep knowledge and experience. I simply never had clients with local SEO needs. My clients do have offices, but not "walk in offices". My clients are not brick&mortar shops. My clients have no need for walking by clients. I do get them a GMB entry (done by my colleagues) but honestly – even though they have GMB they are not important for them.
We do have GMB specialists, they do directly get those clients heavily needing to rely on GMB.
Honestly, every SEO, saying he or she is really good at all the many detailed disciplines of SEO, I fear must be lieing. SEO nowadays is so complex, that you can have some knowledge of everything, but you can not be good with everything. I am good with technical, analytical, strategical and international SEO with small, middle sized and enterprise clients. The Local SEO I am simply not very much interested in – and I don't have be, as I have really good colleagues. I do have some knowledge on white hat link building, but in this field I am also no pro – but I do have people in my network (my company didn't do link building) who are specialized in that (and I do not mean buying links – that is for wanna be SEOs).
So what are you? An all-rounder with little knowledge and experience of everything? Or do you have areas where you are a specialist at and others that you do not know well and others can do better?
Besides, how do you know I can't optimize a GMB? Just because I have never done it, doesn't mean that I don't know what it needs. I am sure, I am not worse in it doing it the first time then others claiming they do it with experience 😉 👍🏽💟3
Mew 👑✍️ » Marcus
I understand your points of assertion and I do think that most can not master all disciplines of SEO. I definitely have my areas of “expertise” but overall I would say that I excel beyond 80% of most SEOs in all areas and any SEO can if they change their mindset a bit.
I look at SEO as a holistic approach. To me it breaks down into a few categories and understanding how Googles algorithms work at their programming level. Not that I have access to anything top secret but hear me out.
For example – We know based on patents Google uses machine learning IDs for entity relationships for Words. That means anywhere Google crawls you can sculpt your vectors – whether it’s in a GMB post, a YouTube Video or on your website. And the same modalities are applied elsewhere.
Google is easy to crack in my opinion for all verticals and I’ve had affiliate blogs that amassed 1m visits a month all the way down to local painters. I also run a very large international newspaper website. All the principles are the same and nothing changes.
1. Relevancy (content)
2. Niche Authority (no longer authority)
3. User Experience and Return
4. Brand Recognition and Mentions
This happens to be the formula for all verticals and all disciplines. If you understand that, you will excel at no matter what you do through critical thinking skills that allow you to take application and theory from a website to a GMB back to a local citation, through to a guest post.
Just my thoughts of course and my anecdotal experiences over a decade and a half. I could be totally off here but I truly believe SEOs need to quit locking themselves into on page, off page and technical because, well, at the end of the day you can call it whatever you want but if it helps rank a site you better understand why, how and be able to reference a theoretical understanding of application of search engine processing 🤷🏼♂️
And thank you for the lengthy reply. I enjoy the discourse and varying inputs 🙂 👍🏽1
Marcus » Mew
then we are on a very similar side in what we think and believe. Therefore I do not understand your initial post or your comment I wouldn't be an SEO but an SEO manager. All I can think of is that you intended to be provocative in order to start a discussion. 👍🏽2
You sound very irritated sir. I remember when I was an IT professional, it would blow my mind how many fools said they knew how to fix computers, and do IT work. And the amount of information, personal, business and otherwise, that they have access to, and can damage so easily, is insane. Absolutely no regulations or certifications required. Now if you happen to do nails or cut hair for a living, you got to have the proper Licensing in training. Makes sense right? 👍🏽3
I think you missing a major point in all of this. You started somewhere didn’t you, not knowing a thing!, ‘all winners were once beginners’ ‘A black belt is only a yellow belt who didn’t give up’ I might not be as good as you or others, this probably applies to many others wanting to learn.
Yes I am still learning, even after 5 years I am still learning, most likely after 15 years still be leaning. I does not not mean I want to rip anyone off and give a bad service.
If I f*ck up then I do my dam hardest to rectify it to the point I have even lost money because my ethics come first.
There is a difference between practicing SEO (like a GP does at a doctors, the are constantly learning) to blatantly ripping people off to make quick money.
We all need to learn and earn a living, its how you earn a living with the ethics and client is seeing results that makes them happy too.
Good debate and a great post. 👍🏽💟6
I don’t necessarily disagree with you but here’s the problem.
A yellow belt isn’t able to charge people for services. They can’t run a Dojo and they aren’t masquerading as a professional provider of a service – they know they are a yellow belt.
Similarity, a Yellow belt SEO should be honing their skills until they are a black belt…not pretending they are a black belt.
That’s my only problem. Lack of transparency. Telling or letting people assume they are professionals and have little to no understanding of high level SEO black belt things .
Just my own perspective of course 🙂 👍🏽2
Johnson » Mew
but at what point do you say your a professional, 3 years, 1,000 hours, 10 years, 100,000 hours and so on.
Or is it when you have tested your knowledge and seeing results for someone, then offered it cheap to the next person and seeing results, then upping your price as your knowledge gets better and results even better.
You don’t learn to drive till after you past your test, is the experience afterwards, it’s the same in any industry.
20 years as an engineer, you become a master over time, even while working for someone they still pay you. They don’t say come back when you are a professional.
A footballer will always be a footballer but a better footballer with experience, the only thing that changes it the wages as they get better. Same in SEO
At the end of the day it’s about results to the person paying you the money, ROI is the what any investor wants in any sector or industry 👍🏽2
Mew 👑✍️ » Johnson
Honestly, and again it’s anecdotally based – it’s not until you have got page 1 rank 1-3 for whatever main and auxiliary keyword you are promising to help deliver for someone else similar results. For me, this was about 8 years before I started selling SEO services at high capacity. 👍🏽2
Wow I actually got myself involved in a debate 😂🤣 and it sort of made sense 😜
Honestly I am dyslexic so I need help with content writing.
Mew 👑✍️ » Johnson
I think there’s a middle ground on all debates to be honest. The asserted and the asserter are never 100% right, they only speak from their own understandings. I’ve been thinking about your points for about an hour now almost to see if there’s room for me to change my opinion 😂😂🤷🏼♂️
That makes sense. I could see that being a true barrier for someone. I just don’t like when people chalk up their perceived laziness to “outsourcing”. If there’s a real obstacle in your way I definitely understand.
Lori Appleman 🎓
If it were up to Google there would be no SEO professionals because they don’t like it. They want everything to be natural and organic and view what we do as gaming the system
I would say this depends on the approach of the SEO.
They provide outlines for how SEO should be done – if you adhere to it, you actually win more in the long run and aren’t affected by algorithm changes and so forth.
I’m about 98% white hat and it has worked out very well for me to give Google exactly what they want over time. The problem is SEOs want it all now, they don’t want to help companies build for years on end. They want the quick rank. That’s what Google doesn’t want. They want you to earn it 👍🏽1
Lori Appleman 🎓 » Mew
The problem is that the customers want to see results instantly and that’s pretty tough to deliver when you’re white hat. The best of breed make sure their customers understand this in advance. Those who haven’t the ability or courage to be honest enter into dirty tricks. Their clients better get lucky and not find that back fires. 👍🏽1
Mew 👑✍️ » Lori Appleman
It’s all about client expectation.
If a client isn’t interested in a minimum contract term with a company or uses the word “Rank” as their perceivable key performance indicator, don’t take the client on.
We should be here to help people build brands, not over night success stories – chances are they won’t be sustainable.
I’m also not sure why it’s so hard for people to turn down clients that don’t meet similar values or understand this. Personally, I meet with 30+ people a year and take on 1-2 clients – but they are the right clients and together we make some serious money through exercising white hat tactics, and yes it takes time.
Omar » Lori Appleman
you think so? Seos tailor their content to the user. It helps Google.
Lori Appleman 🎓 » Omar
That they like. The goal is a better user experience (UX). What they don't like are backlinks, keyword manipulation, etc. In fact, I've found semantic language far more productive.
Problem is what guidelines does the governing body make you follow? Do I suddenly get banned for link building a certain way I know I can make work that others think is risky and rash?
No, you get banned if you don’t understand the ramifications or make it clear to your client they can be penalized long term with no way to come back with a particular domain. 😉
10 years learning SEO from scratch. I still don't even know how to technically setup a WordPress and do a redirect by myself and I don't care. I get 600.000 visits per month for 2,4M pages views and did all the "SEO" myself so far. One Dev just do the technical stuff i ask. I can do the same to any site with 50k SEO annual budget. May I deserve the SEO badge or should i learn GMB first ? 😉 👍🏽7
Not all SEOs need to do local SEO 🤷♂️ 👍🏽2
– GMB’s are national. Just ask any major corporate restaurant.
and? It's not like every SEO is going to work for clients (or their own projects) that even use GMBs.
For years, the only SEO I did was for SaaS companies for example 👌 👍🏽1
Mew 👑✍️ » Chris
– If you want to lock yourself into one niche that’s fine. Just doesn’t make sense in my personal and anecdotal experiences. 👍🏽1
Chris » Mew
I don't disagree at all, but that's just the reality many SEOs are in. I've met plenty that only work in one industry even 🤷♂️ 👍🏽1
Why do shit SEO practitioners bother you so much…lolz
– Because I have to clean up their work and re learn their old clients real expectations.
Paul » Mew
these people exist in every trade…the way you sort this out is by being the best craftsman you can and build a great name for yourself…you gained work from incompetent workers…just crack on…
Lori Appleman 🎓 » Paul
we don't. We're too busy to stalk for clients. Oops reread that …we're not shit..hence we also don't bug people for biz. I am equally amused by the ones who reach out promising me position 1 on Google. LOL
Just focus on quality content. There are plenty of scammers out here. 👍🏽2
Excellent thing to do. Not the total package though many sites can do quite well without any link building.
I normally just focus on great content that MY audience will enjoy and forget the rest. Honestly, spammers will always come and go and will continue to find loop holes. Google will continue to close the loop holes with updates. If you just put out good content and build an audience it doesn't matter what happens. And most importantly BUILD A LIST. 👍🏽2